The Panerai Source Forums

I believe the Pam 111 has a 6497 Swiss ETA movement with modification i.e. swan neck regulator.
I have seen the 6497 Asian ETA movement clones.
I am not a watch expert but the 6497 is a pretty simple, old and proven movement... I am curious what makes the huge difference... other than the Swiss movement is produced with Swiss workmanship and quality control ??? Is it really worth "50X more" than its Asian clone ???
I love the Panerai design they are truly a work of art, but...it seems their value is mostly in perception of exclusivity and assumed high level of workmanship and quality control. I'm sure I must be missing something...there has to be more than just the prestige of owning an authentic Panerai, so go ahead...tell me what an idiot I am !

Well.. first of all, why do you think that the Cheap Fakes are popular? Because Panerai built a successful brand using their own marketing dollars an creativity. Its kind of like asking why Pirated Software is so cheap (FREE!) when buying the software cost so much. You are stealing intellectual property which is why its so cheap... like buying stolen electronics, always cheaper. Chinese replica manufacturers are leeches that steel and suck the designs of true innovators and sell to people who generally cannot afford (or don't care to afford) a nice watch. In my opinion, a true enthusiast would never support these places.

Additionally, the Asian clones do NOT have the same level of quality of finish, and if they did, they would cost substantially more as well. Probably closer to the cheaper Swiss Brands that spend less money on Marketing and Research, and not quite as much as Panerai.

Anytime that theft is involved, stuff is cheaper. Take into consideration the higher wages in Switzerland than Asia, the larger Dollar Mark-ups, since markups are usually a percentage, then the amount seems much higher.

What about comparing the accuracy of both movements? There are lots of replica Rolex watches as well, but would you doubt the original one because of all the replicas?

Admin. thank you for your reply,

I agree with you 100% that the Panerai Luminor and Radiomir style watch designs are more than just functional timepieces... they are very special works of artistry that originated from someones creative spirit and passion and should not be ripped off so easily... the source should be rewarded and given its just due for intellectual property.

But here we are...I don't know, how the law regards replicating someones designs and creativity that have achieved so much popularity...obviously putting on the words Panerai, Luminor or Radiomir is an attempt at deception and should be illegal. Using a sterile dial and casing is not like creating an exact copy and probably becomes more a question of ethics than fraud or theft, I am not an attorney and have no in depth knowledge of these type of matters.

I do know that many watch companies copy each other to a certain degree, to keep up with what is popular and in demand...and the copying is very similiar at times.
Where the lines are drawn in this regard can get pretty complicated.
You can see where I'm going...it can become a long drawn out debate, which is not my intent here and now.

What I am interested in... is the actual process, quality and workmanship that goes into making a Panerai watch. I know an authentic Panerai is a better finished product and is made overall better than even the best of the best Asian replicas... though many Asian clones look good, are very accurate and durable for time keeping, (waterproofing is something else) . But when considering the similarity of the main components which are... 316L steel case, sapphire crystal and simple workhorse 6497 movement, the question remains...what makes the genuine Panerai watch justifiably 50X more costly for the consumer... " marketing ??? "... that sounds pretty slick.
From a purely logical point of view the premium cost for an authentic seems extremely exaggerated, I suspect with purpose to maintain exclusivity.

I am just curious about the driver, it is not my intention to offend anyone...I am not taking a position either way, in fact I am just trying to gain more knowledge to come to a reasonable conclusion for myself. I own a couple of luxury watches and I do know... it feels damm good to wear an expensive watch that has an aura of prestige and history attached to it. I also know that feeling is somewhat subjective...I'm just trying to decide...how much !

Last word,
Yes !
I would pay 5K for an authentic Pam 111 exaggerated as the cost may be, subjective and all... because I love it with my heart.
"It smiled at me"...lol.
But what my head wants to know...is 50X more, at all rational.

It's impossible to justify luxury/designer goods' price of a Pam or a $10K Birkin's based on cost of materials, labor, workmanship or even R&D.

The value is in the intangible branding, the perceived prestige of wearing it in the society (whether you like to show off, or just privately knowing that you're among the select few who owns that particular brand), and most importantly -- the priceless & thoroughly irrational happiness you feel when it's on your wrist...

And thats cool
But amazing... ain't it ?

It is not supposed to be rational.. you are not paying 50X more for the genuine product, you are paying the price of an original product. The real question is do you want to pay 50X less, to be a poser?

No... actually,
being a poser wasn't the question at all.
But thats ok... its really easy to misinterpret someone on internet forums,
concern about who chooses to wear a fake Panerai and true enthusiast loyalties are peripheral.

H2Finally's reply was definitive...impersonal and pointed,
rather than the sentimental emotional idealism, causing you some indignation.
No worries,
Panerai rate of inflation is safe.
I've already moved on to other marvels that require my prompt attention

Good luck in your new interest.

As you said, it is easy to misinterpret - as you have misinterpreted me. My point was that you are not paying 50x more for an original.. the original is should be the standard. You are speaking as though the Fake/Replica was there first, and the Original charges 50x more.. this is not the case. The Genuine article is the original.

Think what you will.

"My point was that you are not paying 50x more for an original.. the original is should be the standard. You are speaking as though the Fake/Replica was there first, and the Original charges 50x more.. this is not the case. The Genuine article is the original."

Ahh...I think I got it now !
...because ice cream has no bones.

On the related note, what do you gentlemen think of "homage" watches? You know - "Marine Militare" and likes.

To me so called "homages" are almost on the same level as outright knock-offs, but there are a lot of collectors who take them seriously.

I remember positing a thread on "homages" on one of the watch forums, basically asking what sets apart fakes and "homages" and how does it make one feel to were something that pretends to be real.

To my surprise my post was removed and I got angry message from the moderator, stating that my post offended some members, as "homages" were quite popular on that forum. Go figure, I thought those members offended themselves by wearing watches that pretend to be something they are not.

Anyway, what's your take on the "homages"?

I guess it depends on what kind of homage... the problem with homages is there does one draw the line to define something as a Homage.

Does that mean that nearly every Debaufre/Steinhart watch is also a homage? Is the Steinhart Ocean-1 a Rolex Sub homage? Is the Debaufre Nav-B uhr a Laco/IWC/Stowa/etc Homage? Is the Debaufre Aircraft a Bell & Ross homage? Or are they different enough that they are not considered so? Are they only considered Homages if everything is identical except the logo?

What about Dievas? RXW?

I think there is a fine line of difference, depending on how they go about doing business. If its a company in China that just does the same thing as their knock-offs but changes the logo, then that's supporting a company that makes fakes, and no different.

I guess Alpha would be interesting case to look at - they copy designs, but replace original logo with their own.

Also, some designs became so classic that they branched out from the companies that introduced them and made it to the product line-up of some respected manufacturers. Examples include Datejust and Submarines by Rolex.

Exactly..

For me Alpha is just as bad as any fake because the company produces many of the fakes and parts for fakes out there. They are one and the same.

I think the reality is, you "would" pay 5k for authentic, but want a sliver-sized opening of justification in buying a fake.

My philosophy is simple. It doesn't matter if the clone is "accurate" or reasonably of decent quality. It would simply piss me off and make me feel like taking a hot shower to even take a look at my Asian crap clone vs owning a real piece. My 112 agrees.



No, it's still coattail riding and a sideways attempt to steal intellectual property. If not, the trademark design would not be utilized in any way, shape, or form.

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PAM 210